I guess they want this to build up the civilian militia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0B7dOQwKm0&eurl=http://...-of-mandatory-civil-

quote:

Originally posted by 17keith:
I guess they want this to build up the civilian militia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0B7dOQwKm0&eurl=http://...-of-mandatory-civil-

Can you please stop with these distortions and taking things out of context. Obama's July 2nd comments were totally distorted by the Right for more false fear-monging hysterics to rally the base into further gullibility and panic. This one to pretend he wants to form a citizen militia here at home as strong as our military.

His speech was about foreign service, and the citizen militia he was referring to was in strengthening citizen volunteer services overseas like the Peace Corp and AmeriCorp.

What is it with you and some others on the Right that insist on spreading distortions and falsehoods as your M-O's? What do you have against truthfulnees and accuracy?

Have to disagree with you Tol. It was on his website that the service would be required

quote:

Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year

And then he hires a chief of staff that is in the previous link on board with the idea of MANDATORY service as well as having written about the idea in his book

quote:

It’s time for a real Patriot Act that brings out the patriot in all of us. We propose universal civilian service for every young American. Under this plan, All Americans between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five will be asked to serve their country by going through three months of basic training, civil defense preparation and community service.

Its looks to be sort of like Draft light only you can't escape it.


I say....Not for my kids

quote:

Originally posted by Serapheem:
Have to disagree with you Tol. It was on his website that the service would be required

quote:

Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year

And then he hires a chief of staff that is in the previous link on board with the idea of MANDATORY service as well as having written about the idea in his book

quote:

It’s time for a real Patriot Act that brings out the patriot in all of us. We propose universal civilian service for every young American. Under this plan, All Americans between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five will be asked to serve their country by going through three months of basic training, civil defense preparation and community service.

Its looks to be sort of like Draft light only you can't escape it.


I say....Not for my kids

Serapheem, Obama does have a plan for civil service, but it is voluntary, not mandatory on any level.

You can view the whole plan via pdf...link below. That document is subtitled "Barack Obama And Joe Biden's Plan For Universal Voluntary Citizen Service."

It's 9 pages and outlays military service matters as well including desire to increase the size of the army and marines. Check it out when you have a chance.

On Page 3 Of His Plan:

II. Integrate Service Into Education

"Barack Obama calls his years working as a community organizer in Chicago’s South Side the best education he ever had. He believes that all students should serve their communities. Studies show that students who participate in service-learning programs do better in school, are more likely to graduate high school and go to college, and are more likely to become active, engaged citizens. Schools that require service as part of the educational experience create improved learning environments and serve as resources for their communities. The Obama-Biden plan sets a goal for all students to engage in service, with middle and high school students performing 50 hours of service each year, and college students performing 100 hours of service each year. Under this plan, students would graduate college with as many as 17 weeks of public service experience under their belts."

LINK - BarackObama.com- pdf

He sees the value of civil service and community service and encourages it, but to make it mandatory would be a big mistake. You don't support that and neither do I, and I think most people wouldn't either.

So it's voluntary and rightly so. If local school boards elect to make civil/community service a part of local curricula, they can do so. And Obama can offer some funding to school districts to do so, but to mandate anything of that from the federal level, I doubt would be well-received and he knows that.

Now insofar as college students, in exchange for $4,000 tax credit on the the first $4,000 of tuition, 100 hours of service is what is required to receive that and is up to the student and family to opt for that or not.

I'm not worried about Rham Emanuel. I haven't read his positions, but I imagine they are in some way shaped by his experiences in Israel where service is mandatory for all those after H.S. Israel is a tiny country always in survival mode and hence have mandatory needs we do not - and I believe, barring national emergency, like WWW III - should not be required here.

The thing about Obama's site is that it is ever changing. It originally looked like this

quote:

America Serves

“When you choose to serve — whether it’s your nation, your community or simply your neighborhood — you are connected to that fundamental American ideal that we want life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness not just for ourselves, but for all Americans. That’s why it’s called the American dream.”

The Obama Administration will call on Americans to serve in order to meet the nation’s challenges. President-Elect Obama will expand national service programs like AmeriCorps and Peace Corps and will create a new Classroom Corps to help teachers in underserved schools, as well as a new Health Corps, Clean Energy Corps, and Veterans Corps. Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year. Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55, while at the same time promoting youth programs such as Youth Build and Head Start.

That didn't go over so well and hence the web site miraculously changed

quote:

The Obama Administration will call on Americans to serve in order to meet the nation’s challenges. President-Elect Obama will expand national service programs like AmeriCorps and Peace Corps and will create a new Classroom Corps to help teachers in underserved schools, as well as a new Health Corps, Clean Energy Corps, and Veterans Corps. Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free. Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55, while at the same time promoting youth programs such as Youth Build and Head Start.

And from his own site

quote:

At the middle and high school level, we'll make federal assistance conditional on school districts developing service programs, and give schools resources to offer new service opportunities."

So he will in layman's terms pay the schools to force our children into mandatory service. What school is going to pass up the chance for $ when they don't have to do anything other than require forced labor. No labor no diploma, and what college or job can you get into without even having a high school diploma?

This is much like the drinking age of 21 being tied to federal highway funding

quote:

Originally posted by Serapheem:
The thing about Obama's site is that it is ever changing. It originally looked like this

quote:

America Serves

“When you choose to serve — whether it’s your nation, your community or simply your neighborhood — you are connected to that fundamental American ideal that we want life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness not just for ourselves, but for all Americans. That’s why it’s called the American dream.”

The Obama Administration will call on Americans to serve in order to meet the nation’s challenges. President-Elect Obama will expand national service programs like AmeriCorps and Peace Corps and will create a new Classroom Corps to help teachers in underserved schools, as well as a new Health Corps, Clean Energy Corps, and Veterans Corps. Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year. Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55, while at the same time promoting youth programs such as Youth Build and Head Start.

That didn't go over so well and hence the web site miraculously changed

quote:

The Obama Administration will call on Americans to serve in order to meet the nation’s challenges. President-Elect Obama will expand national service programs like AmeriCorps and Peace Corps and will create a new Classroom Corps to help teachers in underserved schools, as well as a new Health Corps, Clean Energy Corps, and Veterans Corps. Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free. Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55, while at the same time promoting youth programs such as Youth Build and Head Start.

And from his own site

quote:

At the middle and high school level, we'll make federal assistance conditional on school districts developing service programs, and give schools resources to offer new service opportunities."

So he will in layman's terms pay the schools to force our children into mandatory service. What school is going to pass up the chance for $ when they don't have to do anything other than require forced labor. No labor no diploma, and what college or job can you get into without even having a high school diploma?

This is much like the drinking age of 21 being tied to federal highway funding

Serapheem, I don't get the impression of anything mandatory from the first two versions you quoted. A stated goal of community service differs from a requirement.

As for the third section, I'm confused from where you got that...you noted it's from his site. If that's the case, from where did you draw the first two quotes?

Regarding that last quote, taken at face value it still doesn't cite mandatory requirement for student participation. What it says is that funding is conditional upon setting up a program - nothing in it however says that the program must be mandatory. And I also can't tell what type of funding that refers to.

Personally, I think any program attached to mandatory conditions for students, turns it into a "have-to" rather than perhaps a "want-to." I think that's not the best way to maximize the value of the experience. When young people voluntary serve, it is choice, and I believe they'll respond so much better when participation is of their own volition, especially when it seems it will also likely involve additional school hours.

I say make it voluntary and make it enticing and of value to students so they approach it out of real desire or as opportunity to gain helpful experience for college applications, or if they don't pursue higher education...then stepping stones to gain experience and improve their post H.S. job prospects, and/or just to develop more fully as people by helping others or working on valuble projects.

"No Child Left Behind," though well intentioned, turned out to be disappointment from unfunded mandate. Obama is showing himself to be very deliberate in his planning and approach, and as a politician, i.e, how he'll govern as president, I think he's cognizant of consensus building, and I hope he wouldn't advocate mandatory civil service for youngsters which would just turn out to be a hot-button issue.

Thus far, I haven't seen anything to lead me to believe he would step beyond active encouragement in this matter. Federal education mandates, in particular those that extend the school day, just isn't smart politics in my view for reasons already stated, and could really screw up schedules of entire families. I think local school boards should make this sort decision and partner with communities to make opportunities for their students possible....but not mandatory.

The original intent and what was originally written

quote:

developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year

Requiring means mandatory to me. That it was changed stinks of trying to erase something unpopular than a mistake. Encouraging and requiring are totally different

The Third part, the federal purse strings, is from his own web site


And I am shocked you aren't upset with these overtones towards mandatory service and military style police forces he wants to implement.

Civilian National Security Force??? I wonder if they will have brown shirts as well

From his July 2 speech in Colorado

quote:

We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.

Mandatory service (indoctrination camps?) followed by opportunities to poke your nose into your neighbors business with federal authority (remember...a crime to lie to a fed) all under the guise of national security.

I would think those who have yelled about the errosion of rights and privacy would not turn a blind eye to this


Add to that the fact that there are already (as of Oct 1 this year) active army troops (35 of last 60 months fighting in Iraq) ready to be deployed INSIDE the US with plans to have a total of 4,700 troops ready for internal deployment. The reasons for deployment as flimsy and scary. An article from the Army Times says that

quote:

They may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control

If that doesn't bode ill for our republic I don't know what would. Hopefully dear leader will stop this particular madness. Also don't know why this was never on any news report I've seen.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Serapheem,

quote:

Originally posted by Serapheem:
The original intent and what was originally written

quote:

developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year

Requiring means mandatory to me. That it was changed stinks of trying to erase something unpopular than a mistake. Encouraging and requiring are totally different

The Third part, the federal purse strings, is from his own web site


And I am shocked you aren't upset with these overtones towards mandatory service and military style police forces he wants to implement.

Civilian National Security Force??? I wonder if they will have brown shirts as well

From his July 2 speech in Colorado

quote:

We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.

Mandatory service (indoctrination camps?) followed by opportunities to poke your nose into your neighbors business with federal authority (remember...a crime to lie to a fed) all under the guise of national security.

I would think those who have yelled about the errosion of rights and privacy would not turn a blind eye to this


Add to that the fact that there are already (as of Oct 1 this year) active army troops (35 of last 60 months fighting in Iraq) ready to be deployed INSIDE the US with plans to have a total of 4,700 troops ready for internal deployment. The reasons for deployment as flimsy and scary. An article from the Army Times says that

quote:

They may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control

If that doesn't bode ill for our republic I don't know what would. Hopefully dear leader will stop this particular madness. Also don't know why this was never on any news report I've seen.

Seapheem, I'm going by what is currently written as policy on his website - not what you have quoted from nearly a year ago. I have no problem with policy adjustments that make sense.

I've never been someone who takes well to gov't intrusions or mandating this or that in people's private lives unless, for instance, it involves protecting Constitutional rights and personal freedoms, or is matter of national security.

While I think civil and community service is great thing, I believe it should be voluntary unless our national security is really in jeopardy, or is doled out as part of punishment for conviction or plea bargain in criminal court.

None of this is say that I don't believe the federal gov't doesn't have important role to play in our collective lives, or helping people in time of need or promoting health and opportunity. I just don't think gov't should be intruding into people's lives, mettling in life decisions. Mandatory civil service would be one such example.

As far as Obama's July 2nd speech, read the whole speech. That paragraph you cite, sounds ominus on it's own because it was totally taken out of context for pre-election fear-mongering purposes. The citizen militia he was referring to is citizens here in our country becoming a force of good by going overseas like the Peace Corp, Foreign Service, and Americorps, to help in non-miliatry capacity in places in the world where others are suffering.

quote:

We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.

What he's saying is our military is not the only means by which we protect our national security. When everyday citizens mobilize as force of good outside our borders, it enhances goodwill between America and the citizens of other countries...it puts America in a better light making inroads into the forces that propel evil - things that spur violence and radicalism - poverty, hunger, ignorance, hopelessesness, lack of education, oppression, etc. Goodwill opens dialouge, fosters exposure, debunks myths about Americans. Our military might alone will not foster true national security.

As far as what you cite from the Army Times, what does that have to do with Obama? Bush still is the President and is current Commander-in-Chief. Obama is not. Obama and his advisors are combing through Bush Regulations, Executive Orders, signing statements, and will reverse things - where law permits - that hurt us. Bush has been all about a major power grab and is set to do major damage via dregulation and Executive orders he's still planning - I read another 90.

This deployment you cite is one I find troubling and going against the grain of what has been our history not to do such. Doesn't surprise me it's occuring under Bush/Cheney.

Let Obama get into office so he can undo Bush's power grab. The issue is that not all things can easily or legally immediately be reversed. Bush/Cheney are just stocking up on everything.

The army unit domestically deployed is just another reason why need to responsibly pull out of Iraq and bring our forces home. And I have been concerned for a long time - that the war has left us vulnerable here as so many National Guard units are overseas...states, for instance, dealing with hurricane rescue and aftermath, have had to ask for the assistance of National Guard troops and equipment from other states because too many are deployed overseas.