quote:

From reading your posts, I bet you would let the FBI or any government agency just walk into your house and do whatever they please. You would probably even talk to them about anything (even self-incriminating yourself). That's scary that anyone would be willing to let the government do that.

It's always nice when you think for me. I don't think that would happen unless they had some sort of search warrant.And what would you do if 5 or 6 government agents came to your door and insisted on entering your premises. What do you think would happen if they wanted to come in and you said no. Do you think they would go away. It's very easy to say how you would act on the internet but when it comes to really happening Iam sure you will act different.

As for the being protected from the British, that was good then but doesn't work so good now. We are not fighting the British with one shot rifles we are fighting men that want to blow up our cities and schools, malls and kill millions of our citizens in one shot.
The constitution is great and should never be changed. But the world has changed and so have the rules and our ideas on how to fight an enemy need to also change.
I lost a close relative and many friends at the world trade center so I know what it's like to be involved.

quote:

even self-incriminating yourself).

What crime did Keith commit?

quote:

Originally posted by 17keith:

It's always nice when you think for me. I don't think that would happen unless they had some sort of search warrant.And what would you do if 5 or 6 government agents came to your door and insisted on entering your premises. What do you think would happen if they wanted to come in and you said no. Do you think they would go away. It's very easy to say how you would act on the internet but when it comes to really happening Iam sure you will act different.

As for the being protected from the British, that was good then but doesn't work so good now. We are not fighting the British with one shot rifles we are fighting men that want to blow up our cities and schools, malls and kill millions of our citizens in one shot.
The constitution is great and should never be changed. But the world has changed and so have the rules and our ideas on how to fight an enemy need to also change.
I lost a close relative and many friends at the world trade center so I know what it's like to be involved.

If 5 or 6 government agents came to my house to come in, I would not let them simple as that. They have no right to be on my property without a search warrant.

keith, tens of thousands of Americans died in the American Revolution, exponentially more than those that died on 9/11. The Founding Fathers saw countless individuals die before them, but they knew that they could not sacrifice everything that they are fighting for just to win a war. That is what the whole point of the American Revolution was, to protect our liberties.

I am sorry to hear about your loved ones that you lost, I know it is very difficult. I work on Wall Street and I see the WTC site everyday.

But we can not sacrifice our liberties to fight, that is what the terrorist want us to do. We can not let that happen.

Our Constitution protects us for instances just like this. You can't just arbitrarily change it.

You are a self-proclaimed conservative. So what happened to the strict interpretation of the Constitution? Just like Justice Scalia, you are a strict constructionist only in times when you want it to be.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: dk876,

quote:

Originally posted by kc1313:

quote:

even self-incriminating yourself).

What crime did Keith commit?

See, that is the point. You can make self-incriminating statements even if you are 100% innocent. It happens all the time and there are countless cases of 100% innocent people spending a good portion of their life in prison for crimes they did not commit, just because of statements they made to law enforncement.

That is why you should NEVER talk to the police without a lawyer. It is just foolish not to.

Here is a law school lecture that I think everyone should watch. It is a lawyer lecturing about the bad things that can happen if you talk to the police without a lawyer. You might think it is BS, but watch part 2 and it is a police officer who is agreeing with everything the lawyer said.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

quote:

Originally posted by 17keith:

quote:

From reading your posts, I bet you would let the FBI or any government agency just walk into your house and do whatever they please. You would probably even talk to them about anything (even self-incriminating yourself). That's scary that anyone would be willing to let the government do that.

It's always nice when you think for me. I don't think that would happen unless they had some sort of search warrant.And what would you do if 5 or 6 government agents came to your door and insisted on entering your premises. What do you think would happen if they wanted to come in and you said no. Do you think they would go away. It's very easy to say how you would act on the internet but when it comes to really happening Iam sure you will act different.

As for the being protected from the British, that was good then but doesn't work so good now. We are not fighting the British with one shot rifles we are fighting men that want to blow up our cities and schools, malls and kill millions of our citizens in one shot.
The constitution is great and should never be changed. But the world has changed and so have the rules and our ideas on how to fight an enemy need to also change.
I lost a close relative and many friends at the world trade center so I know what it's like to be involved.

17Keith, It is very sad to know you lost so many loved ones in 9/11. My heart really goes out to you.

My father, as a boy, lost most of his family, his friends, his home, his town, to Na_zi brutality. He himself escaped near certain death several times. My point is, I am ever cognizant of the faces of evil and understand you are too having had it touch your life in such a personal way.

For my father, America is his beacon of hope, and even though his political views line up far more with yours, than mine, if we turn this country into a police-state and allow the gov't to "protect" democracy by giving them unfettered access to power without oversight, we will lose this country and the terrorists will win. Our respect for the rule of law, separation of powers and preservation of personal rights are the hallmarks of our great country.

I, for one, believe we can be kept safe and honor and abide by the rule of law and common sense protocol at the same time. Why do they have to be mutually exclusive? We give up a certain degree of privacy to protect safety - most people accept that.

Most people however also expect the gov't to obtain warrants within the alloted 72 hours for due cause in matters of surveillance. Most people expect strong oversight to protect against abuses of power. Most people expect transparency in gov't as long as it legitimately doesn't risk security.
Most people expect the right to assemble in peace-loving groups without the gov't planting spies to monitor and record innocent, law-abiding Americans.

And most people expect that the private communications of all Americans should not be wholesale copied and siphoned off to gov't databases for no reason whatsoever and without warrant and oversight.

I think we can agree we all crave safety and protection, but we also want to preserve our Constitution and what makes America great.

I didn't lose anybody in 9/11, but I personally know several people who escaped with their lives.

And for myself, but for a change of plans for that Tuesday morning, I would have been right there, exceeding near the Trade Center when the first plane hit. I have driven by the Trade Center thousands of times, and when traffic opened up again into lower Manhattan, I saw that site still smoking from afar - it was a Saturday and just driving on a bridge making my way in, was very unsettling.
Certain things just don't leave - like an entire changed landscape that I saw day in and out for years, and then was just gone, with all those precious lives lost.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tolerance,

Great post Tolerance. I could not have said it any better.

Bottom line is, if we give up our liberties to fight the terrorists, then we are giving the terrorist what they want and letting them win. That will never happen under my watch.

quote:

Originally posted by kc1313:

quote:

even self-incriminating yourself).

What crime did Keith commit?

Well I guess lying on a board isn't a crime but it should count for something.
Someone who says they "have a son in Iraq" and then denies having a son, then says they have no idea "how that was written" and then finally remembers that nephew they raised as a son makes me wonder about everything else that person says.
But that's just how I roll.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Grote,

Didn't we have these types of things happen before .....in WWII roosevelt was having people rounded up and taken out of their homes.....Didn't Lincoln suspend Habius Corpus during the civil war???.......

And the only crime committed was when Grote sent me sexually explicit e mails, then asked me to bite him on a public forum. The queen of Dublin California. 20 minutes from San Francisco, how, convenient. Right Joel.

quote:

Originally posted by 17keith:
And the only crime committed was when Grote sent me sexually explicit e mails, then asked me to bite him on a public forum. The queen of Dublin California. 20 minutes from San Francisco, how, convenient. Right Joel.

My god man you are PATHETIC!
"Sexually explicit" e-mails?
Yes, when you PM'd me about living in California I answered.
When you said you might be coming out this way I put you on IGNORE because you have STALKER written all over you.
Right STEVE!

I e mail you once and you labeled me stalker, and I never said I would come out your way anytime soon. If I was a stalker why did you tell me where you live. Yea I want to stalk a ***** 54 year old man I have never met. I said I would like to go to San Francisco to see the Mets play. Not play with you. Did you not ask me to bite you on the forum, I take that as to have sexual meanings to it.
Why don't you put me back of IGNORE. I liked it better. I didn't have to read your internet tough guy answers directed at me. A$$.

quote:

Originally posted by 17keith:
I e mail you once and you labeled me stalker, and I never said I would come out your way anytime soon. If I was a stalker why did you tell me where you live. Yea I want to stalk a ***** 54 year old man I have never met. I said I would like to go to San Francisco to see the Mets play. Not play with you. Did you not ask me to bite you on the forum, I take that as to have sexual meanings to it.
Why don't you put me back of IGNORE. I liked it better. I didn't have to read your internet tough guy answers directed at me. A$$.

July 5th, 12;04 AM

Being a Met fan and living close to SF do you go to see them there. I went to Candlestick about 15 years ago. Have you been to the new park. [URL=WE ARE GOING TO CALIFORNIA ON VACATION NEXT SUMMER AND AM GOING TO SF AND LA AND WILL TRY AND CATCH A GAME IN SF.]WE ARE GOING TO CALIFORNIA ON VACATION NEXT SUMMER AND AM GOING TO SF AND LA AND WILL TRY AND CATCH A GAME IN SF.[/URL]

STEVE

That's the e-mail you sent (the SECOND ONE) that I didn't answer because it had stalker written all over it.
Yes I did say to BITE ME but only you seem to think that's "sexual". You might want to seek some therapy for that.
I had you on ignore because you are nothing more than a LIAR and a FOOL and back you go.
How's your "son" in Iraq?
How did you serve in the Navy for "8 years in the 70's" when that means you had to join when you were 14?
What "engineer" works "swing shifts"?
You are a total

If I went into the Navy when I got out of High school that would have been the 70's. I joined in 76 when I was 18. Stayed in for 4 years. That time line seems 70's to me.

As for the e mail nothing on there appears to make me look like a stalker. The only thing on there was that my family and I were going to San Francisco. And how could I stalk you unless I knew your name and your address. It's hard to stalk someone just by their first name.

As for what engineer works swing shifts, I work in a large company that I have to work shift work. I check equipment in the plant and they are usually down or at minimum load at night. Also I work with contractors on jobs that are being performed during evening hours.Mechanical Engineers don't always work straight days.


As for my nephew/son he is doing fine. And as I explained I raised my nephew from when he was a small boy and I call him my son.

This is the last time I will explain these subjects to you .
Now if you don't like my explanations F.uck off a$$hole.

quote:

Originally posted by 17keith:
If I went into the Navy when I got out of High school that would have been the 70's. I joined in 76 when I was 18. Stayed in for 4 years. That time line seems 70's to me.

As for the e mail nothing on there appears to make me look like a stalker. The only thing on there was that my family and I were going to San Francisco. And how could I stalk you unless I knew your name and your address. It's hard to stalk someone just by their first name.

As for what engineer works swing shifts, I work in a large company that I have to work shift work. I check equipment in the plant and they are usually down or at minimum load at night. Also I work with contractors on jobs that are being performed during evening hours.Mechanical Engineers don't always work straight days.


As for my nephew/son he is doing fine. And as I explained I raised my nephew from when he was a small boy and I call him my son.

This is the last time I will explain these subjects to you .
Now if you don't like my explanations F.uck off a$$hole.

quote:

Originally posted by Grote:

quote:

Originally posted by 17keith:
If I went into the Navy when I got out of High school that would have been the 70's. I joined in 76 when I was 18. Stayed in for 4 years. That time line seems 70's to me.

As for the e mail nothing on there appears to make me look like a stalker. The only thing on there was that my family and I were going to San Francisco. And how could I stalk you unless I knew your name and your address. It's hard to stalk someone just by their first name.

As for what engineer works swing shifts, I work in a large company that I have to work shift work. I check equipment in the plant and they are usually down or at minimum load at night. Also I work with contractors on jobs that are being performed during evening hours.Mechanical Engineers don't always work straight days.


As for my nephew/son he is doing fine. And as I explained I raised my nephew from when he was a small boy and I call him my son.

This is the last time I will explain these subjects to you .
Now if you don't like my explanations F.uck off a$$hole.